czero,
One last time ah. The valve timings are not similiar. I won`t even go into things like concave cam lobe flanks, etc as you are clearly ignorant. And again your so called concept can be applied to all 4-stroke engines. I guess I can be proud my Dad`s 4 stroke Honda C70 motorcycle has similiar valvetrain "concept" to an F1 engine.
Close
Any Fully Mod NA Proton`s Car That Can Beat TypeR?
Started by
keong
, Feb 19 2002 05:31 PM, 217 replies to this topic
#42
Posted 24 February 2002 - 11:00 AM
llsaw
-
- Members
-
- 3,516 posts
Tokyo Drifter
In any engine, the only way to make more power is More Air and More Fuel. The easy part is getting the fuel. You simply either use larger injectors, work the injectors harder (not recommended) or increase the number of injectors. The tricky part is to get the air in. To do this you either use some sort of device to compress the air and literally ram it through the inlet ports ala turbocharging/supercharging or you can try and increase the breathing performance and efficiency.
Now to increase the breathing efficiency you can do one of those things or all which is what most people normally do. This includes :
1. Increasing the port shape and size so that more air flows in without losing the velocity. As you know Bernoulli`s Principle states that if you increase the area you lose the velocity but there are "tricks" which can be employed to juggled between both.
2. You increase the cam duration and lift. The longer the valves are opened and lifted the more the air can flow in. Unfortunately this area is again a compromise. A naturally aspirated engine that has big cam duration and lifts still needs the vacuum in the engine to draw the air in. And as stated earlier, having the ports open sooner and more valve lift is the equivalent to increasing the are and you lose the velocity. The engine then struggles to breathe at low revs and occasionally loses one of it`s power strokes due to this efficiency. This phenomenon is called eight stroking and leads to that V8 like idle and poor low end performance. It also leads to an overrich condition and generally leads to lot`s of bad bad exhaust emissions. This problem is not an issue once there`s an increase in revs and the efficiency of the engine is enough to match the camshaft characteristics. So some bloke in Honda must have though "Heck, why can`t I have the BEST of both worlds. I have a cam lobe profile that gives an excellent idle and good exhaust emission at low revs plus another cam lobe profile that will give me good breathing efficiency at high revs. Also, let`s include an intermediate profile for excellent air swirl to further increase the air flow into the engine. While we`re at it let`s design a rocker mechanism that is operated using oil pressure via a solenoid to switch between the low and high cam profiles at a preset rpm. Let`s control all this via the ECU. This is what VTEC is. But remember, 1 & 2 are still interlinked. So Honda juggled between the best of both areas and came up with the very first B series engines 10 years ago.
Now let`s go back to 2. first. There are many ways to open and close the cams and most road engines usually use a mechanism called a hydraulic lifter or followers. The advantage of this mechanism is it`s quiet and doesn`t need frequent and labour intensive adjustment like a solid lifter engine. Unfortunately there is a downside to the hydraulic lifter. They don`t like long duration and lift. Aw shucks!!! :-(
Hydraulic lifters can suffer from three main maladies:-
Pumping up, where the lifter solidifies too early during the lift ramp of the cam and over-lifts the valve, this can happen when an engine is over-revved. But you can control this with a reasonable rev limit.
Pumping-out where oil is evacuated from the lifter causing the lifter to solidify too late in the lifting ramp and the valve is under-lifted, mainly caused by too fast a lift or too wide a duration.
Oil aeration which allows the hydraulic lifter to be compressed rather than solidifying on lift, this is the main cause of valvetrain rattle.
Of these i) is the most dangerous since it can lead to valve/piston contact, ii) and iii) just cause the engine to rattle and subject the lifter/follower and cam to shock loads which should have been absorbed by the take up ramp designed into the cam profile. All in all hydraulic lifters and aggressive cam profiles are not too a happy combination.
Needless to say Honda VTECS don`t use this but the 4G93 does :-(
So now that we know, what else makes the B series or the B18C such a good engine. These are :
Q o,
One last time ah. The valve timings are 9 Q :c (! sTitle ( 9 C ! ( stable absorber : A ! d last_poster_id '1', ' A A D3* L Asia/Kuala_Lumpur 9 A &qy a ` Sender ' ' om ( 9
# @# `% Hx# sEditDate rday o9 9 d L# p x# # sPostKey ng arou9 9 w:
# % @# # nNewTopic selah ) 9 pn ( Q r ) y h 2725422', '24338', 'Kia Picanto Owner', '0', 'khyee68', '5c53d92c6fda1dafa6ccaf17238e29e0', '36702', ' f] y y p 9184410', '36888', 'Facelift Nissan Sentra', '1', 'heritage', 'd3aa7099f9a89106771ca495eaa34c66', '', ' 56 A y > $ = p, h4 b MsgURL umber ount or D ! A -04-12 10:31:54.000 ! ! hlim@hotmail.com 000 9 ! cC$ l% $ # % sOldUserID 9 2 9 # % ( `% " sMessage erday oX 9 p> ( & 0 p~ 0 FileID umber ..! 8 ap ! y X ` other extreme is people driving on the right lane at slow speed with
hazard lights on during raining. !\n @ y P
` & ? X
h Hidden ID P TypeR? y @ p 7145132', '10919', 'HONK TWICE WHEN U SEE THIS CAR!', '1', 'promoking', '8aaa8a8b2ecdefcebb25f68713bd3a97 iy y H silver, i prefer black, cause its cool, blue also quite nice, sharp
colour, hope to get my city asap ' coy y @ src=\"http://202.157.189.199/forum/images/emoticons/smile_approve.gif\" border=\"0\" alt=\"Approve\"> els. y p 8 8 Ƞ X| h4 (0 h ( @ 9 ش ` X
y version have alot of vacume flying here and there, so you may need to
disable / block some to use. @ y p) p) Lh+ Honda. Which is richer ? Who has more technology. Who has experience in running F-1. The answer is most likely `HONDA`
Of course comparing a stock ITR and Matspeed SP is not comparing apples with apples. The ITR is like a Pentium 4 while the SP is like a Pentium Celeron.
.. y @ x0043379', '36876', 'Excellent N16', '0', 'ceebee6873', '88a807a53490dc482c96c5c481ac2fcc', '30733', ' ks Si y p me is right..what i meant is anti roll d+ ad of rear strut bar..so anybody knows + $ find it...any recommended workshop?..if+ ( at stuff i can take korner lipat loh.. y ) nza...its unethical..
if me, i will never do it...because i dont want people to do it on my car.
A y o |, P $ MsgImage huh ? th 1 7 y A could always drop by at any Traffic Police Station and have a check
with them as they should help you. y y \ 3937085', '36953', 'fully syn on new engine??', '0', 'fooyc', '77fa056fe073fb8fdc558edd877a09eb', '50782 . y 0 0 s (pid, edit_time, author_id, author_name, ip_address, post_date, topic_id, post_title, new_topic, edit_name, post_key, post_parent, post, old_UserID) VALUES ('585418', '', '951', 'seantang', '211.24.39.52','1014473391', '40927', 'Any Fully Mod NA Proton`s Car That Can Beat TypeR?', '0', 'seantang', '34d0b268ffe9b479c59fe86640bb2b47', '17681', 'Bzz bzzzz .... too much static... not getting through. Anyway, I don`t want to argue anymore. You win lah. And we never said we know a lot. All we`re did was make it painfully obvious that you made a lot of comments without getting your facts right.','seantang@1');
8 y 2 9758131', '12292', 'Best fuel for Honda City Vtec', '0', 'machzero', '23d8e02208f750f64a16fa574b47e779', ' y y 6 0160263', '10893', 'Gua Musang - Jeli, route 66', '0', 'cygnus', '1765976479fdc0ffdb389fdd5f8ab6af', '7643 y y h !![\"Big](\"http://202.157.189.199/forum/images/emoticons/smile_big.gif\")
y ; R3 677', '40927', 'Any Fully Mod NA Proton`s Car That Can Beat TypeR?', '0', 'llsaw', '9e83b74b7e21a5421b22bce09095be67', '17648', 'There is really no point comparing manufcturers. They`re all good. ', y h x whitenite,
oic.one more thing no need to pay rm10 to see yr shot.pay if u want to
take home yr shot. ' y y
3225599', '12290', 'Best discount for Honda Civic 1.8', '0', 'nazmanm', '1f1a843bda39df6c4fde3d2d063941e2 9 ! y 94.59.35 :19.000 y ! only the PRDM lar...even cars with number plates starting with \'Z\'
also drive like speed demons... 16 ' y y , ed....![\"Smile\"](\"http://202.157.189.199/forum/images/emoticons/smile.gif\")
.. @ y ` t4
Now to increase the breathing efficiency you can do one of those things or all which is what most people normally do. This includes :
1. Increasing the port shape and size so that more air flows in without losing the velocity. As you know Bernoulli`s Principle states that if you increase the area you lose the velocity but there are "tricks" which can be employed to juggled between both.
2. You increase the cam duration and lift. The longer the valves are opened and lifted the more the air can flow in. Unfortunately this area is again a compromise. A naturally aspirated engine that has big cam duration and lifts still needs the vacuum in the engine to draw the air in. And as stated earlier, having the ports open sooner and more valve lift is the equivalent to increasing the are and you lose the velocity. The engine then struggles to breathe at low revs and occasionally loses one of it`s power strokes due to this efficiency. This phenomenon is called eight stroking and leads to that V8 like idle and poor low end performance. It also leads to an overrich condition and generally leads to lot`s of bad bad exhaust emissions. This problem is not an issue once there`s an increase in revs and the efficiency of the engine is enough to match the camshaft characteristics. So some bloke in Honda must have though "Heck, why can`t I have the BEST of both worlds. I have a cam lobe profile that gives an excellent idle and good exhaust emission at low revs plus another cam lobe profile that will give me good breathing efficiency at high revs. Also, let`s include an intermediate profile for excellent air swirl to further increase the air flow into the engine. While we`re at it let`s design a rocker mechanism that is operated using oil pressure via a solenoid to switch between the low and high cam profiles at a preset rpm. Let`s control all this via the ECU. This is what VTEC is. But remember, 1 & 2 are still interlinked. So Honda juggled between the best of both areas and came up with the very first B series engines 10 years ago.
Now let`s go back to 2. first. There are many ways to open and close the cams and most road engines usually use a mechanism called a hydraulic lifter or followers. The advantage of this mechanism is it`s quiet and doesn`t need frequent and labour intensive adjustment like a solid lifter engine. Unfortunately there is a downside to the hydraulic lifter. They don`t like long duration and lift. Aw shucks!!! :-(
Hydraulic lifters can suffer from three main maladies:-
Pumping up, where the lifter solidifies too early during the lift ramp of the cam and over-lifts the valve, this can happen when an engine is over-revved. But you can control this with a reasonable rev limit.
Pumping-out where oil is evacuated from the lifter causing the lifter to solidify too late in the lifting ramp and the valve is under-lifted, mainly caused by too fast a lift or too wide a duration.
Oil aeration which allows the hydraulic lifter to be compressed rather than solidifying on lift, this is the main cause of valvetrain rattle.
Of these i) is the most dangerous since it can lead to valve/piston contact, ii) and iii) just cause the engine to rattle and subject the lifter/follower and cam to shock loads which should have been absorbed by the take up ramp designed into the cam profile. All in all hydraulic lifters and aggressive cam profiles are not too a happy combination.
Needless to say Honda VTECS don`t use this but the 4G93 does :-(
So now that we know, what else makes the B series or the B18C such a good engine. These are :
Q o,
One last time ah. The valve timings are 9 Q :c (! sTitle ( 9 C ! ( stable absorber : A ! d last_poster_id '1', ' A A D3* L Asia/Kuala_Lumpur 9 A &qy a ` Sender ' ' om ( 9
# @# `% Hx# sEditDate rday o9 9 d L# p x# # sPostKey ng arou9 9 w:
# % @# # nNewTopic selah ) 9 pn ( Q r ) y h 2725422', '24338', 'Kia Picanto Owner', '0', 'khyee68', '5c53d92c6fda1dafa6ccaf17238e29e0', '36702', ' f] y y p 9184410', '36888', 'Facelift Nissan Sentra', '1', 'heritage', 'd3aa7099f9a89106771ca495eaa34c66', '', ' 56 A y > $ = p, h4 b MsgURL umber ount or D ! A -04-12 10:31:54.000 ! ! hlim@hotmail.com 000 9 ! cC$ l% $ # % sOldUserID 9 2 9 # % ( `% " sMessage erday oX 9 p> ( & 0 p~ 0 FileID umber ..! 8 ap ! y X ` other extreme is people driving on the right lane at slow speed with
hazard lights on during raining. !\n @ y P
` & ? X
h Hidden ID P TypeR? y @ p 7145132', '10919', 'HONK TWICE WHEN U SEE THIS CAR!', '1', 'promoking', '8aaa8a8b2ecdefcebb25f68713bd3a97 iy y H silver, i prefer black, cause its cool, blue also quite nice, sharp
colour, hope to get my city asap ' coy y @ src=\"http://202.157.189.199/forum/images/emoticons/smile_approve.gif\" border=\"0\" alt=\"Approve\"> els. y p 8 8 Ƞ X| h4 (0 h ( @ 9 ش ` X
y version have alot of vacume flying here and there, so you may need to
disable / block some to use. @ y p) p) Lh+ Honda. Which is richer ? Who has more technology. Who has experience in running F-1. The answer is most likely `HONDA`
Of course comparing a stock ITR and Matspeed SP is not comparing apples with apples. The ITR is like a Pentium 4 while the SP is like a Pentium Celeron.
.. y @ x0043379', '36876', 'Excellent N16', '0', 'ceebee6873', '88a807a53490dc482c96c5c481ac2fcc', '30733', ' ks Si y p me is right..what i meant is anti roll d+ ad of rear strut bar..so anybody knows + $ find it...any recommended workshop?..if+ ( at stuff i can take korner lipat loh.. y ) nza...its unethical..
if me, i will never do it...because i dont want people to do it on my car.
A y o |, P $ MsgImage huh ? th 1 7 y A could always drop by at any Traffic Police Station and have a check
with them as they should help you. y y \ 3937085', '36953', 'fully syn on new engine??', '0', 'fooyc', '77fa056fe073fb8fdc558edd877a09eb', '50782 . y 0 0 s (pid, edit_time, author_id, author_name, ip_address, post_date, topic_id, post_title, new_topic, edit_name, post_key, post_parent, post, old_UserID) VALUES ('585418', '', '951', 'seantang', '211.24.39.52','1014473391', '40927', 'Any Fully Mod NA Proton`s Car That Can Beat TypeR?', '0', 'seantang', '34d0b268ffe9b479c59fe86640bb2b47', '17681', 'Bzz bzzzz .... too much static... not getting through. Anyway, I don`t want to argue anymore. You win lah. And we never said we know a lot. All we`re did was make it painfully obvious that you made a lot of comments without getting your facts right.','seantang@1');
8 y 2 9758131', '12292', 'Best fuel for Honda City Vtec', '0', 'machzero', '23d8e02208f750f64a16fa574b47e779', ' y y 6 0160263', '10893', 'Gua Musang - Jeli, route 66', '0', 'cygnus', '1765976479fdc0ffdb389fdd5f8ab6af', '7643 y y h !
y ; R3 677', '40927', 'Any Fully Mod NA Proton`s Car That Can Beat TypeR?', '0', 'llsaw', '9e83b74b7e21a5421b22bce09095be67', '17648', 'There is really no point comparing manufcturers. They`re all good. ', y h x whitenite,oic.one more thing no need to pay rm10 to see yr shot.pay if u want to
take home yr shot. ' y y
3225599', '12290', 'Best discount for Honda Civic 1.8', '0', 'nazmanm', '1f1a843bda39df6c4fde3d2d063941e2 9 ! y 94.59.35 :19.000 y ! only the PRDM lar...even cars with number plates starting with \'Z\'
also drive like speed demons... 16 ' y y , ed....
.. @ y ` t4
#43
Posted 24 February 2002 - 03:42 PM
engseng
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- Members
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- 576 posts
Road Warrior
my opinion on this thread topic, is yes. definitely at least 1 out of thousands of moded proton can beat type-r. 
#44
Posted 25 February 2002 - 01:21 AM
czero
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- Members
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- 620 posts
Road Warrior
very detailed explanation llsaw. have you not considered working for proton ? as you clearly think that im being so ignorant for reading some article off the internet, so be it.
you stated you know someone that can port the engine airflow to the way a B18C does ? i would like to go to this guy. Since i want to port it just that way. Can i have his contact number ?
As for the thread question. If it`s about beating the type-R in a drag, go look at llsaw`s dictionary. If it`s during a traffic jam, all it takes is bigger balls. Enough said and done. right ?
you stated you know someone that can port the engine airflow to the way a B18C does ? i would like to go to this guy. Since i want to port it just that way. Can i have his contact number ?
As for the thread question. If it`s about beating the type-R in a drag, go look at llsaw`s dictionary. If it`s during a traffic jam, all it takes is bigger balls. Enough said and done. right ?
#45
Posted 25 February 2002 - 05:39 PM
4g91freak
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- Members
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- 72 posts
Advanced
llsaw, my hail to you in all car and engine sense, and a very good read, so by all means, you listed out 3 things to do to get the engine at its most potential best,
my question is, in the 4g9x engine series, which piston can take more compression as u mention, to get more static compression out, i believe theres more to just piston, care to explain, secondly, as u said, b series of honda have higher cam profile, which mean in any 4g9x engine can put in a higher cam profile to get a higher output, which cam profile better suits for the exzos and the air intake let say a 4g93p engine, and again care to ellaborate more further on this as well, and thirdly any car mod workshop that deal with track car can do a port, but what are the specs and details of the port to port it as good as a b18c?
i`m very interested at knowing all this due to i`m currently sorting out a 4g91 engine, and any comment on this engine of is potential max output, would like to liase with you on this matter, is an eye opening reading your posting, and i`m not sucking up to your knowledge as a pro in this, but a very curious mind only
hopefully you can contact me at viruscromtech@hotmail.com regarding this `I`ll explain that in part 2 if I have the time`
my question is, in the 4g9x engine series, which piston can take more compression as u mention, to get more static compression out, i believe theres more to just piston, care to explain, secondly, as u said, b series of honda have higher cam profile, which mean in any 4g9x engine can put in a higher cam profile to get a higher output, which cam profile better suits for the exzos and the air intake let say a 4g93p engine, and again care to ellaborate more further on this as well, and thirdly any car mod workshop that deal with track car can do a port, but what are the specs and details of the port to port it as good as a b18c?
i`m very interested at knowing all this due to i`m currently sorting out a 4g91 engine, and any comment on this engine of is potential max output, would like to liase with you on this matter, is an eye opening reading your posting, and i`m not sucking up to your knowledge as a pro in this, but a very curious mind only
hopefully you can contact me at viruscromtech@hotmail.com regarding this `I`ll explain that in part 2 if I have the time`
#46
Posted 25 February 2002 - 08:20 PM
keong
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- Members
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- 941 posts
Road Warrior
integra type-r b18c 98 spec
valve mechanism/no. of cylinder : dohc vtec 16v l4
bore x stroke : 81 x 87.2mm
total displacement : 1797cc
compression ratio : 11.1
( ps/rpm ) : 200/8000
( kg-m/rpm ) : 19.0/6200
year : 1998
gear ratio :
1st : 3.230
2nd : 2.105
3rd : 1.458
4th : 1.034
5th : 0.787
reverse : ?
final reduction gear ratio : 4.785
satria gti 4g93spec
valve mechanism/no. of cylinder : 16v-dohc/4
bore x stroke : 81 x 89mm
total displacement : 1834cc
compression ratio : 10.35
maximum output ( din ) : 103kw/6000rpm net
maximum torque ( din ) : 164/5500 nm/rpm net
year : 2000
gear ratio :
1st : 3.083
2nd : 1.947
3rd : 1.285
4th : 0.939
5th : 0.756
reverse : 3.083
final reduction gear ratio : 4.322
can anyone see the different?
regards,
keong
#47
Posted 26 February 2002 - 09:30 AM
llsaw
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Tokyo Drifter
Keong,
ITR 98 spec FD is 4.786. Torque is 19.5 kg-m. You are quoting the 96 spec.
ITR 98 spec FD is 4.786. Torque is 19.5 kg-m. You are quoting the 96 spec.
#48
Posted 26 February 2002 - 09:40 AM
llsaw
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- Members
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- 3,516 posts
Tokyo Drifter
czero,
My apologies on saying you were ignorant. Maybe I was just too forcefully putting my point across ?
For porting, contact CHarlie aka Matspeed at 017-3868575 but remember porting is not the be all. An NA engine is usually the sum of it`s parts. You match the head porting with your cam profile and make sure the engine has appropriate compression. Then there`s still other parts to consider which are of equal importance. Foremost of this is getting the mapping right.
My apologies on saying you were ignorant. Maybe I was just too forcefully putting my point across ?
For porting, contact CHarlie aka Matspeed at 017-3868575 but remember porting is not the be all. An NA engine is usually the sum of it`s parts. You match the head porting with your cam profile and make sure the engine has appropriate compression. Then there`s still other parts to consider which are of equal importance. Foremost of this is getting the mapping right.
#49
Posted 26 February 2002 - 10:43 AM
llsaw
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- Members
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- 3,516 posts
Tokyo Drifter
4g91,
Static compression is determined by the volume of the combustion chamber when the piston is at TDC. To change the combustion chamber volume, you can use pistons with different dome volumes, use headgaskets of various thickness (thicker will give you less compression and thinner vice versa) or skim the cylinder head (skimming increases compression).
I don`t really have the time now explain all your other questions. It`s going to take another super long article. Maybe you can join us at : http://communities.m...trixMotorsports
where my fellow brudders can help answer your questions.
Static compression is determined by the volume of the combustion chamber when the piston is at TDC. To change the combustion chamber volume, you can use pistons with different dome volumes, use headgaskets of various thickness (thicker will give you less compression and thinner vice versa) or skim the cylinder head (skimming increases compression).
I don`t really have the time now explain all your other questions. It`s going to take another super long article. Maybe you can join us at : http://communities.m...trixMotorsports
where my fellow brudders can help answer your questions.
#50
Posted 26 February 2002 - 12:12 PM
4g91freak
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- Members
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- 72 posts
Advanced
llsaw,
i`ve been following up alot on teammatrix.com.my for tips and tricks,
i know the skimming part of the head does give u a higher compression, piston, port and polish the head, the right profile cams for the mentioned mod as final,
and thanx..for the site, willdefinately check it out, and mind me asking, where is mat speed located, i know price for mod does goes with profesional skills at hand in ya car, and definately mat speed product and service are expensive, any discount from them??
thanx again for those info
i`ve been following up alot on teammatrix.com.my for tips and tricks,
i know the skimming part of the head does give u a higher compression, piston, port and polish the head, the right profile cams for the mentioned mod as final,
and thanx..for the site, willdefinately check it out, and mind me asking, where is mat speed located, i know price for mod does goes with profesional skills at hand in ya car, and definately mat speed product and service are expensive, any discount from them??
thanx again for those info
