[ssho]

Why do we need a "NATIONAL" car or, for that matter,
any NATIONAL product?
We need good products at a reasonable price.
If it's made in Malaysia, fine. By Malaysians, jolly
good. For Malaysians, great.
But it must still be a good product at a good price.
And how do we determine if it's a good product and
price? Look at the competition.
In the real world, with real competition, even the
absolute best company with the best product and best
service does not get 100% of the market.
It's widely accepted that Toyota is among the best-run
companies in the world, and has consistently
maintained the highest quality. But, still, it does
not get 100% of the market.
That's because we are human, and we want to be
different from the rest. I'll take second best from
Nissan or Mazda (for example) if they are also second
highest priced, or in some way compensates for some
inferiority.
This is because I don't want to be in a Toyota if
every house in my street also has a Toyota parked out
front.
But, Mazda also has to be very good, and priced even
better.

So, back to the original question. A NATIONAL car is
fine to get the project off the ground, like Daddy
giving you downpayment for your first car.
But, a car maker must export to achieve its volume,
and not rely on an arm-twisted captive market for too
long, which is what Proton has done.
If and when market opens up, Proton won't have 50% of
market even IF it is as good as Toyota if it sells at
the same price.
Toyota can survive on its volume in Malaysia, whether
that volume goes down 30% or up 30%. It has markets
everywhere else in the world.
Can Proton survive even a 15% loss of its home market
share?
So, if Proton has to be cheaper in order to sell large
numbers, and its unit cost continues to be higher, it
has no business remaining in business.
As far as I'm concerned, I have never bought a Proton
and do not intend to start, even if it's cheaper. I
prefer to be different, and am fortunate enough to be
able to afford it.

[nick1994]

...and if ssho wants 2 b different and can afford
it....i say, the G should continue to tax the hell out
of him .........

...after all, the key is ......if all buyers of non-
nationals are like ssho and can already afford
it.......so, this group should not really worry
whether prices of non-nationals will come down or
not......

and they should not worry about proton surviving or
not, just continue buying the non-nationals and b
different...why worry....cause u can afford it
what.......

[ssho]

actually, nicky, I pay less tax than most
motorists ... 'cos I drive a Ranger.
Minimal import duty (15%, I think) cos it's a
commerical, 0% excise duty cos it's a commercial, and
10% sales tax, same as every other vehicle.
How much do you pay?

[nick1994]

ssho,

what 2 do?....pay a lotlah........but WE....as a class
are exactly the people the G should NOT help.......as
i mentioned since all can afford......

[dereklaw]

This is a very good discussion and I would like to
give some of my views. It’s true that Protons and
Toyotas are both assembled in Malaysia by Malaysians,
with the engine imported. However, I believe the main
difference in the quality of a Proton and non-National
cars lies in the following:

Quality of the vendors

All my friends who drive a Proton, from the early days
of the Saga to the Perdana have complained about the
power windows Granted my Waja friends have yet to
complain but only time will tell. What has taken
Proton so long to rectify this problem? Most of my
other friends who drive non-National cars generally
have less complain about their cars, like things do
not fall off when you go over a bump. Proton should
have a more stringent quality control over their
vendors and terminate vendors who supply them sub-
standard parts and should not be awarding contracts
based on contacts but on merit.

Consistency in Quality Control

As CHIPS has mentioned, buying a Proton is really
depends on your luck. Why can’t Proton employees
maintain an acceptable standard? I believe it’s the
mindset of both the management and employees. The
management for thinking that it does not make any
difference because most Malaysians will still have to
buy their car, what other choice do we have and the
employees for not having the initiative to outperform
the management and their own expectations. It is said
in Japanese and Korean production lines, the employee
will time himself on how long he took to assembly a
car, compare the time with his co-workers and attempt
to better their time and improve on his own (if he is
already the fastest) without compromising on quality.
All this is done on their own initiative and they are
not guaranteed a reward by their management.


Government policy

In the good old days when Telekom was the only telco
in Malaysia, it will take you weeks to have a phone
line installed and you had no choice but to curse in
silence. But now Telekom claims that it is much
faster (a matter of days). Why, because of
competition. Monopoly breeds inefficiency and
compliancy. We all know that if the price difference
between a Waja and an Altis was just 10K, nobody will
buy a Waja. So while there is still government
protection (before 2005) why isn’t Proton doing
anything. Reason is, they are confident that
government protection wil continue after 2005.


Difference in quality between domestic and export
Protons

This is by far, the most unacceptable practise in
Protons management that non only the domestic Protons
owners are getting an inferior car but have to
subsidise overseas Proton owners. I have heard
stories on how certain salesman promise export
versions for a higher price and generally owners of so-
called export version have less complains.


Research and development


As it stands, the technology in a Proton has always
been borrowed technology and lets be honest. Nobody
is going to teach you their trade secret. You just
have to be smart enough to “steal� it from under their
noses but alas for more than 15 years we either have
been unable or unwilling to do that. With that in
mind, I believe that the Proton engineers have never
fully understood the true picture in building and
designing a car, thus producing a car with more
problems than the others.

I am an accountant and not an engineer but I am under
the impression that, with enough money:

a) An architect is able to design a building;
b) A civil engineer and structural engineer is able to
construct a building; and
c) An automotive engineer is able to build a car.

After all, Henry Ford built his car more than 100
years ago, the Japanese have being building cars for
more than 70 years. So, what happened to all the
automotive engineers in Proton? I say, shame on all
of you, what took all of you so long to finally come
out with your own engine. Granted that this problem
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[Chips]

Thanks very much for sharing your views. I really
like it when people can offer critical views in this
manner where you point out the flaws and also offer
some constructive comments.

So far, I have not been able to get anyone to say
that national makes can be equal in price to non-
national makes and still sell equally well. That's
pretty sad for national makes, I think, and I am not
sure how they can get out of that rut.

You are right that a monopoly is not necessarily a
good thing. It is useful when you need to start
something and in many developing countries where
foreign investment was low, governments had to fund
various services to get infrastructure set up. And to
promote industrial growth, they had to protect
certain kinds of industries from foreign competition
otherwise they would be unable to develop. That is
fine but protection and monopolistic policies must
have a time-frame and the parties being protected
must know that if they don't get their act together
within that time-frame, then it is too bad for them.

Proton enjoyed protection because it was a national
car company and an important catalyst for
industrialisation. I have always considered it an
excellent move by the PM because in many countries,
the auto industry has been a very important catalyst
for such development as it is the world's largest
single industry with the widest range of ancillary
industries. So protecting Proton was essential.

However, I think that by giving the protection and
allowing the monopoly but not drawing up some clear
time-frame, Proton in those days never thought about
the future, never prepared for real competition.
There was a 'govt dept mentality' where profit
motivation was not really inculcated; after all, why
work harder if your competitors can't touch you and
consumers must buy your products since it is the
cheapest around? Good quality or bad quality,
everything you make will still sell. Motivation is
killed because of the absence of true competition.

Actually, I believe that when Proton was started,
there was not much unhappiness from the other players
even though they were affected seriously and had 'one
hand tied' in the market. They recognised that Proton
needed some protection and I believe there was some
sort of 'understanding' that Proton would remain in
the mass 1.3~1.6 litre segment while everyone else
could compete freely without disadvantages in other
segments. But when the Perdana appeared, there was
some disappointment... I think that under the
Industrial Master Plan for that time, this was also
in the outline.

I think also that there was a 10-year time-frame for
Proton but due to the recession of 1987, this was
altered and then never reviewed after that to adjust
it. Perhaps when AFTA was signed in 1992, people woke
up but Proton was still a 'govt company' and it was
only in 1995 when it was privatised that things
really got moving in a more commercially-motivated
manner.

So maybe Proton lost 10 years to get into shape and
if we now take 1995 as the starting point, perhaps
2005 is a reasonable date for it to be ready for open
competition. Certainly, its product development is
accelerating and all the strategies formulated in the
late 1990s by TM are beginning to be realities and
new products are appearing.

Shifting the focus just a bit, Perodua started in
1994 - 2 years after AFTA was signed - and it was
very clear that it had a relatively short time to get
its act together. And it used that time wisely,
ensuring that quality would be high and then by the
late 1990s, it made the decision to invite Daihatsu
to take over the factory and thus guarantee its
future in the post-AFTA period and the chance for a
Malaysian company to continue 'waving the Malaysian
flag' in the auto world.

[flee]

Chips,

A very good summation on this thread and the
situation with Proton. The bottom line is that it is
about time that Proton lost its protection because it
had a fair crack of the whip already.

I think that had Proton been managed in the same
manner as Perodua right from the beginning, we would
not have needed to postpone the implementation of
AFTA to 2005.

But better late than never - I for one would look
forward with interest to see whether Proton is
capable of rising to the challenge. TM has made many
bold statements about Proton's competiveness and
product quality. The time for talk will soon stop and
we will then be able to see if all that talk will be
translated into action.

I would be the first to congratulate Proton (and
maybe, even become a Proton owner myself!) if they
can achieve a competitive state in a level playing
field.

[kk2001]

'I for one would look forward with interest to see
whether Proton is capable of rising to the challenge.'

I think we don't need to wait till 2005 as the the G
already started to scratch there head thinking how to
protect Proton.

Just look as Langkawi & Labuan where our fellow
residents living there is lucky to have a duty free
zone and they can afford those imported cars. I
remember when I worked in Labuan, the Corolla was few
thousand more than the Wira yet I see more corolla
than wira over there.

I hope maybe Chips can provide the car sales
statistics for this 2 islands. We'll know what will
happen to Proton if htere is a level playground.

[wing]

I for one wouldn't even use the word CHEAP as cheap
products are sometimes of good quality. I'd prefer to
use the word AFFORD as I've no choice but to by a
Proton car since this is the only branch new car I can
afford. I've owned a few car's in my life and
certainly felt a little disappointed with my Satria.
The quality of the car is nothing to mentioned about.
Even my previous Kancil was far better off not to
mention the after service that I received.

Local cars sold here are so much different from the
export version that I puked when thinking about it.
Think about it,

Export model - air bags (local - none)
Export model - ABS/BA (local - none)
Export model - extended warranty (local - you can
guess)


And few other items that local models do not have. Not
to mention the price is cheaper with all those gadgets
thrown in for the export model. Why the doublr
standards here??

I certainly wouldn't complaint if my Satria comes with
all those gadgets mention and paying the current price.

[ARTCT]

I bought my Honda 1991 model for RM43k. With that
amount of money, I can easily buy a new Proton car but
I didn't. My 1st car is a Saga and after few years I
changed it to Wira.

I think we shared the same dilemma for driving a
national car. Besides quality issues the parts is too
expensive!!!

Albeit my Honda is more than 10 years old, i believe
in term of technology it's 10 years above Perdana. So,
unless Proton can improve their product quality and
360 degree change in their protected mindset, I will
never and never drive a Proton Car.

Sorry!!!! this is the word came from our FM. Bros out
there, don't expect high hope to obtain imported car
after 2005 and you will forever indebted to Proton!!!

Best regards