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Fully Synthetic Oil Can Last How Long?


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#11
ring

Posted 09 April 2013 - 11:43 PM

ring

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Are all your fingers the same lenght?

Scania vs a smaller passenger car engine design n different? Better put ur brains in somewherelse..or butt"
Ring

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#12
Tourist

Posted 10 April 2013 - 12:16 AM

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QUOTE (ring @ Apr 9 2013, 11:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Are all your fingers the same lenght?

Scania vs a smaller passenger car engine design n different? Better put ur brains in somewherelse..or butt"


Which is tougher on engine oil? Turbo-charged diesel engine or pea sized passenger car engine? Since you bring up the issue of brain, let's hope you have one to figure it out.

In case you don't, here's a quote: "In petrol (gasoline) engines, the top piston ring can expose the motor oil to temperatures of 160 ┬░C (320 ┬░F). In diesel engines the top ring can expose the oil to temperatures over 315 ┬░C (600 ┬░F) ".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil
I prefers to use my head than follow the crowd. After all, it is my money and not theirs.

#13
YSW

Posted 12 April 2013 - 04:05 PM

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QUOTE (Tourist @ Apr 6 2013, 06:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Nonsense. Scania and Volvo truck maker say Mineral engine oil can last much longer than that in their turbo charged diesel engine. Even Lotus who designed the Proton CFE said it was designed to use Mineral engine oil at 10,000-km change interval.



Mineral base oil contains less than 90% and/or greater than .03 percent sulfur and have viscosity index greater than or equal to 80 and less than 120...

Meaning it has more impurities, more sulfur and less resistance of viscosity change with temperature fluctuation....

I am just wondering how an engine oil which can oxidize faster, less resistance to temperature change can out-perform better than engine oil that has superior anti oxidation and has higher resistance to temperature change???



#14
scenic

Posted 12 April 2013 - 04:40 PM

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One needs to find out the % of synthetic based oil added into mineral oil to make it called fully synthetic oil. Anyone cares to show me the % ?
director's choice

#15
Tourist

Posted 12 April 2013 - 05:42 PM

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QUOTE (YSW @ Apr 12 2013, 04:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Mineral base oil contains less than 90% and/or greater than .03 percent sulfur and have viscosity index greater than or equal to 80 and less than 120...

Meaning it has more impurities, more sulfur and less resistance of viscosity change with temperature fluctuation....

I am just wondering how an engine oil which can oxidize faster, less resistance to temperature change can out-perform better than engine oil that has superior anti oxidation and has higher resistance to temperature change???


You are right if you are talking about PURE BASE OIL. Synthetic Base Oil does last longer than Mineral Base Oil.

But I am talking about Engine Oil and 10,000 OCI. Not quite the same thing because the additives in both Synthetic and Mineral ENGINE OIL wear out around the same time, hence similar OCI.


I prefers to use my head than follow the crowd. After all, it is my money and not theirs.

#16
YSW

Posted 13 April 2013 - 03:10 PM

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QUOTE (Tourist @ Apr 12 2013, 05:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You are right if you are talking about PURE BASE OIL. Synthetic Base Oil does last longer than Mineral Base Oil.

But I am talking about Engine Oil and 10,000 OCI. Not quite the same thing because the additives in both Synthetic and Mineral ENGINE OIL wear out around the same time, hence similar OCI.


Additive depletion is just one of the factor determining OCI, other factors include oxidation, metal wear and etc....

10,000 Km OCI is just a recommendation. As long as your engine oil can fulfill all OCI engine oil analysis parameters, you can follow the recommended 10,000km interval.... In case your engine oil oxidize faster than additive depletion, you might have to change the engine oil sooner....

If you have no means of analysis to determine all these,

Plus,

mineral base oil consists more impurities and sulphur which translate to higher TAN, higher TAN will cause TBN to reduce at higher rate...

and...

Synthetic / severely hydrocracked base oil would have higher resistance to oxidation and thermal fluctuation and lower TAN.

Even though there is no 100% guarantee that additive blended in synthetic base oil would last longer, but at least switching to synthetic would reduce the some of the risk.....

It is just like driving an NCAP-3 stars and NCAP-5 stars cars, the car manufacturer cannot guarantee that you will survive in both cars in an accident...

Some driver would think since the car manufacturer cannot guarantee, why should I spend more to buy a more expensive NCAP-5 stars car....

Some would think it is worth to invest for NCAP-5 stars car because it will reduce the risk of fatality/injury...

Both also have their points, it is up to the consumers to decide which one to go for....

#17
Tourist

Posted 13 April 2013 - 04:59 PM

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QUOTE (YSW @ Apr 13 2013, 03:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Additive depletion is just one of the factor determining OCI, other factors include oxidation, metal wear and etc....

10,000 Km OCI is just a recommendation. As long as your engine oil can fulfill all OCI engine oil analysis parameters, you can follow the recommended 10,000km interval.... In case your engine oil oxidize faster than additive depletion, you might have to change the engine oil sooner....

If you have no means of analysis to determine all these,

Plus,

mineral base oil consists more impurities and sulphur which translate to higher TAN, higher TAN will cause TBN to reduce at higher rate...

and...

Synthetic / severely hydrocracked base oil would have higher resistance to oxidation and thermal fluctuation and lower TAN.

Even though there is no 100% guarantee that additive blended in synthetic base oil would last longer, but at least switching to synthetic would reduce the some of the risk.....

It is just like driving an NCAP-3 stars and NCAP-5 stars cars, the car manufacturer cannot guarantee that you will survive in both cars in an accident...

Some driver would think since the car manufacturer cannot guarantee, why should I spend more to buy a more expensive NCAP-5 stars car....

Some would think it is worth to invest for NCAP-5 stars car because it will reduce the risk of fatality/injury...

Both also have their points, it is up to the consumers to decide which one to go for....


What you said is NOT what many engine manufacturer are saying. They said it's the additives (anti-oxidant, anti-wear, anti-whatever) and not BASE oil that determine OCI.

"Synthetic oils do not allow further extension of oil drain intervals.It is the contamination rate (i.e., soot and the depletion of additives) rather than base oil quality that determines the useful engine oil life and therefore the oil change intervals."

http://www.macktruck...76-89091989.pdf

Having said all that, what you said about the many advantages (better resistance against oxidation etc) of Synthetic over Mineral are correct. But extended OCI is simply NOT one of them, especially when you are talking about 10,000K OCI. Unfortunately many people don't know that and start spreading this extended OCI nonsense like this fellow "ring" is doing. Yet has the stupidity to talk about brain when he has none himself.
I prefers to use my head than follow the crowd. After all, it is my money and not theirs.

#18
YSW

Posted 13 April 2013 - 09:15 PM

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QUOTE (Tourist @ Apr 13 2013, 04:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What you said is NOT what many engine manufacturer are saying. They said it's the additives (anti-oxidant, anti-wear, anti-whatever) and not BASE oil that determine OCI.

"Synthetic oils do not allow further extension of oil drain intervals.It is the contamination rate (i.e., soot and the depletion of additives) rather than base oil quality that determines the useful engine oil life and therefore the oil change intervals."

http://www.macktruck...76-89091989.pdf

Having said all that, what you said about the many advantages (better resistance against oxidation etc) of Synthetic over Mineral are correct. But extended OCI is simply NOT one of them, especially when you are talking about 10,000K OCI. Unfortunately many people don't know that and start spreading this extended OCI nonsense like this fellow "ring" is doing. Yet has the stupidity to talk about brain when he has none himself.


You have a point here....

Mack Truck is the truck and powertrain manufacturer, they are not manufacturing engine oil, hence, they need to protect themselves because they are not going to audit the quality of engine oil before pouring into Mack Truck.....

We know that engine oil consists of base oil and additive, you can use a synthetic base oil and blend it with cheap and low quality additive and you still can legally market it as synthetic engine oil, such oil would probably perform at par with a good quality mineral engine oil which consists of good quality additive....

Mack Truck would have to consider such possibility and therefore stated a standard recommendation for OCI for all types of oil as long as it meets MACK EO-O PP.... Mack Truck approves such standard by auditing sample sent to them by the lubricant companies, but Mack Truck does not sample all oil from the production.... So, to be safe, Mack Truck conservatively recommends 10,000km....

Some independent test on Cummins ISX engine has shown some superior result in extending OCI under the closed monitoring activity such as regular oil analysis.... The truck was hauling averagely 63 tonnes and the history had shown that the average OCI is 70,000km for 5 years, and after the mileage of 850,000km, the engine is still in good condition.... Cummins recommended 25,000km OCI using premium mineral that meets CES 20081, but synthetic oil made by XXX company had shown the ability of extending the OCI to almost 3x.....

Well, this is just an independent test, whoever would check with Cummins technical service would still be recommended to stick with 25,000km OCI....

A lesson I learnt here.... if you can afford it, go hunt for that synthetic oil that is blended with good quality base oil and good quality additive... The name "synthetic" alone does not mean everything... use it, try it and if possible send it to lab for analysis (VOA and UOA) and decide which oil you want to stick to....

Cheers!

#19
Tourist

Posted 14 April 2013 - 12:40 AM

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QUOTE (YSW @ Apr 13 2013, 09:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You have a point here....

Mack Truck is the truck and powertrain manufacturer, they are not manufacturing engine oil, hence, they need to protect themselves because they are not going to audit the quality of engine oil before pouring into Mack Truck.....

We know that engine oil consists of base oil and additive, you can use a synthetic base oil and blend it with cheap and low quality additive and you still can legally market it as synthetic engine oil, such oil would probably perform at par with a good quality mineral engine oil which consists of good quality additive....

Mack Truck would have to consider such possibility and therefore stated a standard recommendation for OCI for all types of oil as long as it meets MACK EO-O PP.... Mack Truck approves such standard by auditing sample sent to them by the lubricant companies, but Mack Truck does not sample all oil from the production.... So, to be safe, Mack Truck conservatively recommends 10,000km....

Some independent test on Cummins ISX engine has shown some superior result in extending OCI under the closed monitoring activity such as regular oil analysis.... The truck was hauling averagely 63 tonnes and the history had shown that the average OCI is 70,000km for 5 years, and after the mileage of 850,000km, the engine is still in good condition.... Cummins recommended 25,000km OCI using premium mineral that meets CES 20081, but synthetic oil made by XXX company had shown the ability of extending the OCI to almost 3x.....

Well, this is just an independent test, whoever would check with Cummins technical service would still be recommended to stick with 25,000km OCI....

A lesson I learnt here.... if you can afford it, go hunt for that synthetic oil that is blended with good quality base oil and good quality additive... The name "synthetic" alone does not mean everything... use it, try it and if possible send it to lab for analysis (VOA and UOA) and decide which oil you want to stick to....

Cheers!


Like you, I have done some research on this issue and your own research clearly shows that Mineral Base Oil has absolutely no problem when we are talking about merely 10,000-km OCI. There are other engine manufacturers saying the same thing as Mack aka, Synthetic Oil does not extend OCI because it's the additives & soot that determine OCI. As for Scania, their OCI can go up to 120,000 km using 15W40 (and 15W40 is most likely to be Mineral).

It's the engine manufacturers who decide which API or ACEA or JASO grade and viscosity should be used. And if none are available, manufacturer can set their own specific requirement and it's up to oil company to produce. So it's not entirely true engine manufacturers has no control over engine oil quality. They dictate quality.

One small point. OCI are dictated by soot and additives. Mineral Base Oil probably handle soot better than Synthetic Base Oil. And soot is a huge problem with diesel engine especially with EGR equipped engine, less so for gasoline engine. So Mineral Oil probably is a better choice over Synthetic and at a far cheaper price. When we talk about 10,000-km, you probably are not going to see any advantage of Synthetic over Mineral whatsoever. So from an economic point of view, it's unwise to pick Synthetic.

And I absolutely agree about your last point. A Synthetic Oil from a no-name brand may even be worst than a Mineral from a reputable brand and reason why we only stick to Delo-400 15W40 for our diesel trucks. It's one of the best out there and when compared to Synthetic, dirt cheap. And we NEVER have any engine oil related problem, even up to 500,000-km when truck sold off. So we see absolutely no need for Synthetic.

So we can safely conclude the often found statement "Mineral last 5000-km and Synthetic last 10,000-km" to be nonsense and without any scientific basis.
I prefers to use my head than follow the crowd. After all, it is my money and not theirs.

#20
vr2turbo

Posted 14 April 2013 - 01:47 PM

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Good discussion and information...... smile_thumbup.gif