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Questions and answers on CVT Saga, Exora, P3


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#11
pgkia

Posted 21 March 2012 - 08:52 AM

pgkia

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QUOTE (kristof @ Mar 20 2012, 06:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
4) Overheat issue on CVT2. There is rumours saying that Saga FLX always break down due to CVT2 overheat. Is there any solution already?

We use a wet clutch, when you would move uphill at very low speeds it would slip almost constantly. We cool this clutch with CVT oil, this is pumped trough the clutch by our CVT pump, this pump is directly connected to the engine. So yes, when not driving as you should with a CVT (and you cannot know this as this is new) you can overheat it. Please compare to manual, if you would keep it on a hill only using the clutch you would burn it.

What to do? avoid long slipping clutches by applying enough throttle when moving uphill, the engine will produce enough power for us to close fast without long slipping period. Shift to N when you can, this will have a cooling effect on the CVT, if possible in N apply little throttle till lets say 1500rpm, this will rev up the pump and increase cooling.
these tips are only for extreme conditions! all other condition drive as you want!
Our CVT's are tested under extreme temperatures! Worst case scenario clutch will open, resulting in no drive as we measure temperature and in order not to break the CVT we will open clutch. You will have to wait a few moments, key on and off and there you go again, this is no breakdown!


Need more specific info on the following:
1) Do we know when the cluth is fully open? is there an indication or behaviour that we can observe?
2) as you said "when you would move uphill at very low speeds it would slip almost constantly", how slow is the slow (car speed and engine rev)?
3) The tips in the "what to do" is for extreme conditions. could you elaborate more on the conditions?
4) When u said the CVT is tested under extreme temperature, how extreme is it?
5) If the car is in extreme condition, i believe the CVT oil might be degraded earlier than expected. Is there a way for us to check if the CVT oil is still at its functional condition to lub and cool the CVT?

I am currently driving a Honda City with CVT and it is working fine after 150k+ km. it has the idle neutral behaviour as you mentioned above. As we know, City CVT is not supplied by Punch. Thus, i want to make sure i drive like what Punch recommends in order to get the best out the CVT, yet with minimal wear and tear. i am getting my Exora soon in the next 2-3 weeks.

Thanks!

#12
kristof

Posted 21 March 2012 - 08:54 AM

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QUOTE (ntc2000 @ Mar 20 2012, 11:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Is there anyway to avoid CVT failure like honda city/jazz? Any special thing need to take care in order to longer the lifespan of punch CVT?

Nothing really special, just drive and enjoy. If would have to say one thing it is to let it build up it's clutch pressure after releasing brake or putting in D before going on throttle, that will be better for clutch.
need your expertise how to take care on punch CVT GB.

thanks


#13
kristof

Posted 21 March 2012 - 09:03 AM

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QUOTE (pgkia @ Mar 21 2012, 08:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Need more specific info on the following:
1) Do we know when the cluth is fully open? is there an indication or behaviour that we can observe? i do not know what you mean, only open in N, almost open but small drag in D on brake, more drag (causing creep speed) in D off brake
2) as you said "when you would move uphill at very low speeds it would slip almost constantly", how slow is the slow (car speed and engine rev)? speeds under 10kph
3) The tips in the "what to do" is for extreme conditions. could you elaborate more on the conditions? Conditions where with manual car you would get in trouble, there is no real circumstances i can give you
4) When u said the CVT is tested under extreme temperature, how extreme is it? We do summer and wintertests, wintertests go up to -40degree, summer tests are extreme high temps and mountains.
5) If the car is in extreme condition, i believe the CVT oil might be degraded earlier than expected. Is there a way for us to check if the CVT oil is still at its functional condition to lub and cool the CVT? You cannot check but there is no need to. 60000km is fine as in service manual. (or 2 years)

I am currently driving a Honda City with CVT and it is working fine after 150k+ km. it has the idle neutral behaviour as you mentioned above. As we know, City CVT is not supplied by Punch. Thus, i want to make sure i drive like what Punch recommends in order to get the best out the CVT, yet with minimal wear and tear. i am getting my Exora soon in the next 2-3 weeks.

Thanks!



#14
pgkia

Posted 21 March 2012 - 09:33 AM

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ok..i think i am getting clearer picture....
1) cluth fully open in N, minor drag when in D and accelerating, more drag when in D and brake applied (engine brake).
2) i think it is unlikely that we go uphill with the speed of <10kph

The CVT overheat issue, if i understand correctly from your replies, mainly touching on the cluth. In worst case, the cluth will open to avoid further damage. So, the CVT(belt, "gear") remains safe. Is that right?

So, the cluth is a wear and tear stuff then? how frequent it needs to be replaced?

#15
ckwg

Posted 21 March 2012 - 09:43 AM

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Hi All,

Kudos to everyone here asking really good questions and especially to Kristof for spending time and patience to answer each one of them! I really learnt a lot in this thread!

Regards,
CKWG

#16
kristof

Posted 21 March 2012 - 09:48 AM

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QUOTE (pgkia @ Mar 21 2012, 09:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
ok..i think i am getting clearer picture....
1) cluth fully open in N, minor drag when in D and accelerating, more drag when in D and brake applied (engine brake).
2) i think it is unlikely that we go uphill with the speed of <10kph

The CVT overheat issue, if i understand correctly from your replies, mainly touching on the cluth. In worst case, the cluth will open to avoid further damage. So, the CVT(belt, "gear") remains safe. Is that right?
Temperature build up in clutch is the problem, that is why it opens. Gears, belt, are not sensitive to these temperatures.
So, the cluth is a wear and tear stuff then? how frequent it needs to be replaced? It is designed to equal normal lifetime of a car.



#17
dirn

Posted 21 March 2012 - 11:46 AM

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ntc, thanks for the initiative...

"If would have to say one thing it is to let it build up it's clutch pressure after releasing brake or putting in D before going on throttle, that will be better for clutch."
kristof, thanks for the tips.

#18
saffrin

Posted 21 March 2012 - 12:23 PM

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Thank you Kristof for taking the time and making yourself available to answer queries.

I had some trepidation before purchasing an Exora Premium because quite a few MINI CVT owners were not fully happy with the original ZF VT1F gearbox after reaching higher mileages.

I appreciate the low weight and compactness of the your cvt package and decided to give it a chance rather than wait for a manual version to be available.

Can you give an insight as to how the VT3 has been improved over the VT1F?
Is the Exora the first car to be fitted with the VT3?

Thank you.



#19
kristof

Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:55 AM

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QUOTE (saffrin @ Mar 21 2012, 12:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thank you Kristof for taking the time and making yourself available to answer queries.

I had some trepidation before purchasing an Exora Premium because quite a few MINI CVT owners were not fully happy with the original ZF VT1F gearbox after reaching higher mileages.
Please take into consideration that multiple thenthousands of mini CVT have been sold over a lot of countries. Offcoarse happy customers will not post on forums, only people that have some trouble do. Same goes for saga FLX where almost 20000 units are driving right now in malaysia and thousands of Bolds.

I appreciate the low weight and compactness of the your cvt package and decided to give it a chance rather than wait for a manual version to be available.

Can you give an insight as to how the VT3 has been improved over the VT1F?
VT3 is based on VT1 allthougth the whole control stategy and hydraulic system changed. This makes it easier and safer controllable. For example the strategy to apply the clutch is constant learning program that remaps every time you shift to D so that clutch wear over time will be compensated. Also the gearbox has a lot more safety in a way that importtant components will be protected if something would go wrong. Offcoarse every failure is investigated on VT1 and prevented in VT2.
Is the Exora the first car to be fitted with the VT3?
Yes it is, but the VT3 is very similar to VT2 that we are supplying for multiple years. Some mechanical components are changed to withstand higher torque (eg Gears) and the final gear ratio is different. All service parts for VT3 are same as VT2.
Thank you.



#20
saffrin

Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:46 PM

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Thanks for the prompt reply Kristof!

In SAT mode, the gb feels programmed to shift up earlier (at lower rpm).
In the long term, to save gb wear is it recommended to leave setting in SAT mode?