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Integrity Of Journalists


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#11
igor87

Posted 30 September 2010 - 03:50 PM

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My oh my, what an interesting topic. I don't believe that any of them are 'infected' per se, that's too strong a word. It's safe to say that to a certain degree everyone (not just automotive journalists) have their own brand preferences, and by all means they are entitled to their own opinions.

It is unlikely that a prospective buyer gets turned off from a particular vehicle after having read a negative review on it, local or otherwise, which makes this whole argument about journalists helping the big three sell more cars a big fat moot point. Automotive reviews have close to zero bearing on vehicle sales, no matter how writers/fans/hater would like it to be.

As for the torsion beam and drum brake issues, TheGunner is right. It would certainly be unfit for all motoring writers to keep slagging off manufacturers who swear by those solutions, be if on cost or engineering fronts. As a reader you'd get tired of seeing the same points being made over and over.

My take on it is that the majority of buyers do not care whether or not a car comes with independent rear suspension or drum brakes. And within the small community of those who are aware of it (there are less of us than you'd think), even less still can feel the differences between cars with torsion beam suspensions and others with more sophisticated (some would inaccurately say more modern) set ups.

Comfort wise the Sylphy, with its torsion beams, is of a completely different league compared to others in its class. The Lancer on the other hand, independent rear suspension neatly tucked into its handsome shell, feels a lot less controllable at speeds in reference with, again, the Sylphy.

And I for one will not be caught dead being seen driving the Nissan, let alone buy one. So no, I'm not infected by N either.

Many here complain at every mention of drum brakes, yet how many of the exact same people drive around in a hopped up car with big, heavy wheels paired with standard brakes?

No manufacturer will sell a car with inadequate brakes anymore, lest they want the reputation they've built over the years flushed down the toilet as soon as the first reports of failures arise. If they say that the drum brakes are sufficient, then they are. If owners then swapped their alloys with massive ones with mega moment of inertia, then complain of sub-par braking performance, who's fault is it then?

To date I have never driven a vehicle made in the last 20 years or so that has issues slowing down within acceptable margins. The matter of new cars having insufficient brakes is such an overexaggerated hoohaa couch motoring enthusiasts bring up when they're bored.

#12
DC18

Posted 01 October 2010 - 04:11 PM

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Is a chicken n egg thing.
Both are ur customer (mag buyer and advertiser).

Being too frank or harsh may affect the relationship between editor and advertiser. It is still a business entity which need to survive. However the current crop of journalist are quite ok, they do give honest review without being too harsh.



#13
jimmyteng

Posted 12 October 2010 - 09:11 AM

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QUOTE (TheGunner @ Sep 26 2010, 01:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
When it comes to torsion beam rear suspension and drum brakes, it is somewhat true that these items are actually sufficient to meet the needs of family applications.

I won't put my money on a car which uses a torsion beam at the rear, but beyond you and me, majority of buyers out there can't tell the different between a torsion beam and a multi-link rear suspension. If car makers know they can get away with offering a torsion beam rear suspension, they will. The past two generation models of the Nissan Cefiro had been using torsion beam rear suspension.

I do criticize manufacturers on these points, but even from a reader's perspective, you might find it tiresome for a journalist to keep harping on a same point.

The following C-segment cars use torsion beam rear suspension
- Peugeot 308
- Kia Forte
- Toyota Corolla Altis
- Nissan Sylphy
- Chevrolet Cruze

Can you imagine each of the above reviews dissecting their torsion beam?

Independent rear suspension and rear disc brakes are a requirement for me, but I've found that even in the fraternity of motoring journalists, not many agree with me on this.




Hi Gunner,

What is the difference between multi-link and torsion beam?

What current cars using the multi-link?

#14
brah9ff

Posted 14 October 2010 - 04:59 AM

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I would have thought that this phenomenon applies in most countries and in many sectors, not just motoring; although the extent/severity of it may vary.

#15
TheGunner

Posted 17 October 2010 - 09:22 PM

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QUOTE (jimmyteng @ Oct 12 2010, 09:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi Gunner,

What is the difference between multi-link and torsion beam?

What current cars using the multi-link?


Multi-link suspension is a type of independent suspension. Torsion beam is non-independent.

When we say independent suspension, it means that the left wheel and right wheel can move up and down independently of each other. For example, if the left wheel hits a pothole, the right wheel is theoretically not affected if the car uses independent suspension.

A torsion beam design features a beam that directly connects both wheels to each other. So, the up and down motion of one wheel affects the other.

Independent suspensions allow engineers to give a better compromise between ride and handling, whilst with a torsion beam setup, you save space and cost.

Many C-segment cars these days use torsion beam suspension, and most B-segment cars use it as well.

Multi-link suspension is used in almost all D-segment cars, though the Nissan Cefiro had torsion beam. A point to note is that Nissan calls its torsion beam design the multi-link beam suspension - this is printed in catalogs of both the Cefiro and also the N16 Sentra.

C-segment and below cars using multi-link suspension that I can think of now are:
- Mitsubishi Lancer / Proton Inspira
- Ford Focus
- Mazda3
- Proton Waja
- Proton Gen.2 / Proton Persona
- Proton Satria Neo
- Hyundai i30.

The Honda Civic has independent rear suspension as well, but theirs is of the double wishbone design rather than multi-link.

The Chevrolet Cruze uses a torsion beam as well, which Chevy calls a compound crank axle. I recall during the launch press conference that 'compound crank axle' was still an unfamiliar team to me, and to my surprise that Chevy's engineer assigned to face us during the conference could not answer my question if it was an independent suspension or not.

During my recent trip to the Paris Motor Show, GM displayed a mock-up of the compound crank axle at the Opel stand, but do note that the display features a Watt's linkage which is not included in the Cruze.

Attached Thumbnails

  • compoundcrankaxle.JPG

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#16
jimmyteng

Posted 17 October 2010 - 10:06 PM

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Thks for the details explaination.

#17
benny1001

Posted 18 October 2010 - 01:39 AM

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QUOTE (TheGunner @ Oct 17 2010, 09:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
but do note that the display features a Watt's linkage which is not included in the Cruze.



Hi Gunner,
which part is the Watt's linkage on the picture?


#18
TheGunner

Posted 18 October 2010 - 08:12 AM

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QUOTE (benny1001 @ Oct 18 2010, 01:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi Gunner,
which part is the Watt's linkage on the picture?


Hi benny, this modified picture should answer your question. Oh, and remember.. GM calls the torsion beam a compound crank axle.

Attached Thumbnails

  • compoundcrankaxle.JPG

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#19
tr0llb41t

Posted 18 October 2010 - 10:28 AM

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I dislike how so few reviewers have ANY negative things to say about the cars they test. Local journos are slightly worse in this regard - always trying to paint the rosiest picture possible, until their articles read more like a feel good story rather than a car review. Because let's face it - what readers wanna know is the bad points of a car. Not because of some ghoulish reason to see the bad in things, but more from a 'buyer beware' perspective. I want to know, before I buy a car, what things will turn me off? What are the source of future problems, things I need to spend more money on? Can I live with some of the 5h1t in car A, or should I go for car B which don't have the same problems but doesn't turn me on as much as car A?

In the over-inflated car market that is bolehland, the negatives about a car should be highlighted because a car purchase is not something to be considered lightly.

The only reviewer I truly admire is one from Oz that got banned by a few manufacturers for giving their 5h1t too many bad reviews. Look up Autospeed and check out his review about the current City - a must-read for starry-eyed Hontards in bolehland.

#20
alldisc

Posted 22 October 2010 - 02:26 PM

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QUOTE (cfa @ Sep 27 2010, 09:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
1. To repeat my point, torsion beam is still acceptable in C-Segment but definately not drum brakes. I said in the Altis before and on normal roads, its just as comfortable as Independent Suspension but when you start exceeding the speed limits on twisty roads, you may feel more body roll.

2. Back to the point of 'polite motoring journalist' is the current 10-year + old Sentra reborn in the form of Impul and still getting very positive reviews, albeit some minor comments about nothing changed in the interior. So, if there is a change in the interior, does this mean that its a great package?

3. Just to digress, one of the more straight shooting journalist is "Ah Toh", in CBT, that guy will give very frank comments, but he does not do much reviews, just answering questions and giving comments. There was once this guy who wrote that he bought a second hand BMW and was complaining that the service cost was very expensive (both Authorised and outside workshops), and was looking at some recommendations for workshops, Ah Toh answer was for him to sell his BMW and buy a Proton.


allow me to share opinion.

1. torsion beam axle goes as far as 1980s. i did own one car with such set-up; it was a mitsubishi galant super touring E12 and the handling was even better than proton wira 1.6 of the following decade with multi-link set-up. this is personal experience.

but in my knowledge torsion beam design has its advantages especially if fitted in a non-performance oriented cars and those are:-

a. torsion beam reduces the overall size of suspension and makes the suspension well smaller. smalle suspension well will not 'eat' into cabin space.

b. torsion beam limits the flex rate between left and right suspension, to an extend that it is considered as stabiliser bar too. this reduces rolls during cornerings which contributes to good handling

c. torsion beam has fewer components less than multi-link set-up and this reduces maintenance cost. example a wira 1.6 has upper link, lower link, stabiliser link, lower arm and trailing arm that will wear out after a certain period.

d. torsion beam has fewer joints to the body and this greatly reduces the amount of noise transferred into cabin space compare to multi link whereby almost every link is bolted to the body.

2. its hard to blame the journalists on the little 'bias' of their media report. i'd rather rather point the reason to our automotive environment and the corporates involved. if one journalist has a negative criticsism on a specific model it will not make the distributor feel good and the effect is, they may hesitate to invite the media again in future.

it has been a culture in our country to say only nice things about a car tested, and if really necessary only 1 small weakness that they hope will not affect sales of the new car.

3. IMO ah tot was being helpful by saying in a way that to maintain an used car, like a BMW requires a lot more money than a proton and the advice is somehow seems honest and sincere.