[important] Peugeot Al4 Gearbox Advice

Hi guys,
Wah very scary to read all these posting! Gearbox failure as early as 52k
km as in chongpt case. As for the 407 we have the current miledge is 22k
km and I have already change the ATF 3 times(1st change at 8k km(1st
year), 2nd change at 16k km(2nd year) and 3rd change at 21k km(3rd year).
So far touch wood no problems on the gearbox except for the jerky AL4
gearbox characteristic which I guess it is normal for everyone having an
AL4 gearbox here.

Those who bought their 407 in 2005 I don't think it went through long
storage. The 407 was only launch in year 2004 overseas and we received
our unit in Jan 2005. Those early birds may have even receive theirs in
end 2004. So what's this story about Cycle having old stocks of AL4
gearbox? Further more the car is fully import.

Chongpt,
Do keep us updated on your gearbox issue. I wish u all the best in
dealing with Cycle or Naza.

Andy,

1. now clocked 52,XXXkm
2. last changed ATF at 30,000km service last year Feb/Mac (not sure
actual date).
3. It happen at LDP driving around 80km/h. Normal driving, not
overtaking or fast acceleration. I guess I drive around 90km/h after it
locked in 3rd gear.

---------

chongpt,

Sorry, missed your reply. Thanks for your info.
From your record, it seems it`s just about 1 year and about 20,000KM++.
So, we have one example here which happens less than 30,000KM or 1 year.

1. Can you share your driving habits during the 1 year? Roughly?
2. Do you drive frequently in traffic jams and do you drive hard or just
normal usually?

EDIT:
I just re-read your post, you mentioned you have the "Automatic Gear
Fault" sign. That could be some parts failed, maybe the solenoid. Based
on your mileage and mileage per year, I believe you car`s still under
warranty, right?
If in case it`s the solenoid valve and changed it, remember to ask them
if they`ve updated the ECU.

Thanks.

swoon,

Wow, your 407 has very low mileage. 2nd car?
Anyway, heard yours had other problems than the AL4 right? Not plannin to
sell it? They`re going to launch the 407 CKD with higher spec at very low
price.

Since yours is well maintained, hope everything goes well.

Yeah, those who bought the early batch shouldn`t went through long
storage, just few months in the ship cruising, hehe. But the issue is
with C&C claiming warranty from Peugeot France. The warranty starts the
moment it leaves the manufacturer. What I heard was, C&C unable to get
claims from Peugeot France, thus the customers suffer, which isn`t fair
for us, the customer.
As for C&C having old stocks of the AL4 gearbox, Probably it was the
parts they ordered for their 3S Centre when they first launch. Not sure,
just my guess, as I heard they have old stocks and thus, they never bring
in new revisions of the AL4, clearing off the old stocks.

I`m not sure how`s Bestari AL4 doing, most of them just clock around
20,000KM. Not sure how many batches are the old ones tough (if Naza did
not get the new ones). Hopefully the new 407 CKD are using the better AL4
already.

swoon wrote:
>>Those who bought their 407 in 2005 I don`t think it went through long
>>storage. The 407 was only launch in year 2004 overseas and we received
>>our unit in Jan 2005. Those early birds may have even receive theirs in
>>end 2004. So what`s this story about Cycle having old stocks of AL4
>>gearbox? Further more the car is fully import.

Attibuting the AL4 gearbox failures to "LONG STORAGE" is BULLSHIT !!!
Consider this:-
1) Why is it that the 407`s that were registered immediately upon
importation also suffer gearbox problems ? They were NOT in "long
storage"

2) Car gearbox on "long storage" should suffer LESS Wear & Tear, and
deterioration that those on the road, since there is virtually no wear &
tear on internal parts, and the ATF does not suffer significant
deterioration.

ATF Fluid mainly suffers deterioration "in use on a moving vehicle", due
heat, depletion of protective chemical, oxidation, and loading of wear
particles (clutch plate wear particles and metal)

### ESSO`s Technical Services Engineer says "Recommended shelf life
typically 3 years from date of manufacture, although usually if not
ingression of water will last much longer. Oil generally will NOT oxidise
over time on the shelf as there is no presence of hot temperature or
moisture."

The explanation simply does NOT jell. The gearbox "in storage" regardless
of whether it is "in car" or as a spart part in a warehouse does not
deteriorate significantly !

I am guessing that just before the GB fault light came on, you were
either:
1) Accelerating up and gear changing from 2nd into 3rd
2) Slowing down, down change gear from 2nd into 1st
3) Started the car and just driven it for a few minutes and then in (1)
above
4) Driving slowly (like in a jam) for at least a few minutes and then in
(2) above

My experience with AL4 GB tends to be like the above. Perhaps you can
share with us what were the cicumstances leading to this fault. Thanks.

Quick fix is just to switch off the engine and restart. That should work.
If it still persist after doing this, then it may suggest that the fault
could be more persistent or permanent.

bm_dp,

If i not remember wrongly, i was driving around 80km/h in 4th gear.
(contants traffic at LDP area). I have to said that no changing gear
event occur before that moment until it alarms and lock my gear to 3rd.
I did stop and start back the engine. the alarm did go away bt then my
car can't move in D and M1. I need to use M2 to move.

I remember reading someone post on "Aisin"... hmm... Anyway, on Aisin
(member of Toyota Group):
"Aisin AW is a major automotive technology manufacturer. Established in
1969 utilizing BorgWarner designs, it is also a leader in innovation,
having developed the Prius transmission and the world`s first speaking
navigation system.

It is based in Anjo, near Nagoya, Japan. Another important is division is
located in Okazaki.

Other global locations: Headquarters for Europe : AW Europe & AW
Technical Center Europe Headquarters for the US : AW TEC"

-----

The box developed Aisin in accordance with specifications issued by the
PSA Peugeot Citroen Group, it`s a Aisin-Warner 6-Speed.
Last year August, I heard from my SA that they were testing with a
Japanese Box on the 407 CKD. It could be this one, but can the 6-Speed be
used on the EW10J4?

Btw, this same box was use by VW Golf. Aisin also developed tranny for
other continentals and japanese.

This site about 407 launch in Abu Dhabi, you can read the quite a lot of
info, including the Aisin-Warner 6 Speed used in 407 under Transmission.
http://www.ameinfo.com/46290.html

Here`s a short version extracted from the site:

TRANSMISSIONS
The 407 is fitted with engines that can be combined either with a manual
5-speed (BE4/5) or 6-speed (ML6C) gearbox, or with an electronic 4-speed
(AL4 - 4HP20) or 6-speed (AM6) automatic auto-adaptive gearbox.

The automatic gearboxes feature a "Porsche Tiptronic System" sequential
control and are mounted transversely at the end of each engine.

The 6-cylinder petrol engine (ES9/A) with a power of 155 kW and a torque
of 290 Nm only is fitted with a new AM6 6-speed automatic gearbox.

Developed by Aisin A.W. in accordance with specifications issued by the
PSA Peugeot Citroen Group, this gearbox is genuinely innovative, allowing
for the first time in the world a 6-speed transmission to be combined
with a high-torque transverse mounted engine.

Its torque capacity, which extends to 450 Nm, makes it compliable with
future engines from the group.

Sch3matically, its underlying principle is to use the gear ratio
combinations of two epicyclic trains, one single, and the other double.
The assembly is controlled by just five friction elements managed by a
compact integral computer.

The short first gear gives the car verve when starting off and the six
gears exploit the engine`s full potential, with a slight drop in engine
speed accompanying each gear change to smooth the change, improve
dynamism and continuity of acceleration.

The "longer" sixth gear reduces both fuel consumption and the sound
level, with no compromise in terms of performance, which is immediately
enhanced by downshifting one or more gears.

The car`s dynamic performance is therefore significantly enhanced
compared to previous performance from an equivalent 406.

Driving pleasure is also enhanced by two possible control modes: one
automatic auto-adaptive for peaceful and stress-free driving, the other
more active, thanks to the "Porsche Tiptronic System" sequential control.

CARZ,

Correction, I`m not saying AL4 gearbox failures to "LONG STORAGE". It`s
that it could be due to long storage, there`s is lifespand and
deteriorates (minimum"ly"); thus when it reach the owners hand and drive
for another 1 year, it could have already be not in a good condition.

Please check Peugeot Bermuda service schedule advice. It`s said that the
ATF Fluid NEEDS to be changed every 1 year (under usage). When not use,
yes, there is less wear and tear, but there`s still lifespan in terms of
time, I believe everything does. Plus, not to mentioned, it`s is OPEN
from the container and exposed before it is filled into the box.
Plus, why do you think there is 60,00KM or "2 years". They always specify
a time interval for changing any form of lubricants.
There`s even a lifespan in terms of "time" for Timing Belt, so does many
other parts.
When you buy a long storage car, they will change the Engine Oil for you,
Brake Fluids, etc. That`s what I know and experience.
The Brake Fluid change interval is also mentioned in Peugeot Bermuda
Servicing.

Again, as mentioned, if you google around, you`ll find many people saying
that there`s no such thing as ATF last a lifetime, and again, please
refer the the Citroen PDF on the first post itself.

1. 407 suffer AL4 problem immediately upon registration? Can you share
some stories? The 307 and 206 are also usingthe AL4 am I right?

Lastly, I`m not trying to argue this AL4 is realible. How problematic is
it, what`s the point for keep complaing and saying it`s bad. The
important thing is find out what could be *possibly* the reasons and how
each driver take cares of it, so we, as drivers, can understand better,
instead of just "living" with it, saying it`s simply useless and faulty.
Right?
The examples I given above are just what I "think" might be the
*possible* reasons, and also trying to find out why those whose AL4 fails
fail. There`re many AL4 users, including 206, 307, 407. It`s good to know
why certain have no problems at all, and why (possible outcome/reason)
certain AL4 suddenly fails at certain mileage.

Hi all,

For a bit more detail on my car,

Bought in april 2006 and the car was 2006 batch as mentioned by the sales
person. I have to said I m not a racer type of driver. No frequent
start-stop and seldom har braking. Even the brake pads still very
thick. I seldom drive fast, normally highway at 120km/h with short dash
to 140km/h. ATF I changed at 30,000km service. With 30,000km per year,
I m very carefull with the service interval. I make sure it service on
time.

From the expereience during it occur and after stop-start engine, i
suspect it may due to a solenoid failed to engage and the transmission
detect of abnormal pressure. I didn't receive flashing SNOW/SPORT light
as mentioned in the forums. And went it given out 'Automatic Gear box
Falty' signal, the transmission work nicely.

Thanks for concern and i will updated frequently. Glemarie SC only start
operate today, and my car sent in yesterday. My car become the first to
be operate there as genuine pig. ~Eventually Glemarie SC is in fact the
move-over of CC SC. Same team. Hopefully they will improve they service.

chongpt,

Thanks for your info. Did they bring in 2006 models? I tought the 2005
was the last? There's still 2005 models in certain showroom, the price
will greatly be affected once the CKD is launched.

According to your driving and maintenance, I believe the fluid should be
OK. We'll see what the SC says after.

Yea, since your's are directly link to "Automatic Gear Fault" signal, it
could be some other problem. Hope you can get details from the SC, such
as, why it fails (reasons) and how to prevent it (prevention step), etc.

I tought the Glenmarie SC only deals with minor service issue now?
Anyway, from the news there're 11 profesional technician there, not sure
who are they tough.
Yea, hope they'll improve their service, please also update us how's the
environment and the services there.

Thanks!

Andy,

I m not sure about the year model. Is there a way to check the model's
year? May I ask if there is other 407 face these problems before? If
those with 1st batch without such problems, then i guess i just run out
of luck and get a bad apple. I fit only happened to me , then i feel
relief that a new gearbox should last for some time.

Please share info if other did face this problems before.

Thanks,

Chong