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Citroen Al4 Gb


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#21
ojtee

Posted 16 October 2010 - 12:56 PM

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how about using an electric fan in fornt of the oil cooler?

if a car is stuck in traffic for long periods of time, the ambient air will not be able to transfer heat out as fast compared to a car that is moving, plus the fact that other cars are emitting heat from their engines thus increasing the overall surrounding temp, also the fact that a car's normal operating temp would range from 90 to 120, some of that temp will transfer itself unto the gearbox,

not sure if its viable or doable due to space, but a fan at the gb valvebody could help reduce operating temp especially if the car is extended periods during traffic jams, use a switch to on or off it, or wire it with aircond low speed fan

#22
macrospy

Posted 16 October 2010 - 07:08 PM

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QUOTE (ojtee @ Oct 16 2010, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
how about using an electric fan in fornt of the oil cooler?

if a car is stuck in traffic for long periods of time, the ambient air will not be able to transfer heat out as fast compared to a car that is moving, plus the fact that other cars are emitting heat from their engines thus increasing the overall surrounding temp, also the fact that a car's normal operating temp would range from 90 to 120, some of that temp will transfer itself unto the gearbox,

not sure if its viable or doable due to space, but a fan at the gb valvebody could help reduce operating temp especially if the car is extended periods during traffic jams, use a switch to on or off it, or wire it with aircond low speed fan


i guess not necessary, the cooler should be fine to bring down the temp of the oil to some degree before it goes back into the GBox. The oil usually can withstand high temp. The reason the cooler is there is to cool the oil because the properties will degrade overtime due to heat and be faster without a cooler. The degraded oil is the one that kills the Gbox. If we change in time should not be a problem. For example if we change at 15k, the degraded quality maybe 20%, 30k maybe 40% without a cooler. But with the cooler we may reduce the wear of the oil futher maybe by the time u change at 30k, the wear maybe 20% instead of 40%. Some thinks we can go further with a cooler but personally I still change according to schedule.

#23
leeinred

Posted 16 October 2010 - 10:10 PM

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Ojtee,
We speak the same wave length here. In “boleh” land, u will find the following scenario:
1. When the manual and technical specification of the AL4 GB clearly stated that: “AL4 GEAR BOX IS A SEALED AUTOMATED TRANSMISSION DESIGN FOR LONG LIFE:, "It`s sealed tight" !!!! you would have people that come to tell you their mechanic is able to dismantle and repair the AL4 GB. They probably want to tell you that they are able to change the “torque converter” and the “clutch plates” inside the GB as well after fair wear and tear smile.gif Just smile smile.gif
2. When you cast a doubt over the “genuine” of the GEAR OIL on the wording “MADE IN U.E.”, you would have people that interpreted to mean “European Union specification and standard”, Rather than from where the oil come from, “MADE IN XXX” mean specification. If it mean specification, why can’t you put the wording as “MADE IN ACCORDANCE WITH E.U SPECIFICATION XXXXXX” or “MADE IN COMPLIANCE WITH E.U. SPECIFICATION XXXXXX”?????. Shouldn’t specification and standard come with a CODE and NUMBER?? If “MADE IN U.E.” means “specification” then what is this Esso LT71141 ??? Esso LT 71141 specs is not EXXON spec??? Just smile when u read between the lines because when come to bs in this “bolehland” we have many “experts” recognized by the medical act of “bolehland” but able to “strangle” themselves with both hands smile.gif
3. My philosophy of life in problem solving is this: “If there are modern “medicines” and preventive measures that able to cure and prevent a problem from occurring why walk into the surgery room??? Rather than building up an “immune” system or have medicine cured at the least expense, you have expert that claim able to operate, cut here and there with bs guarantee and no further side effect smile.gif
4. Putting a good Japan fan behind an “Oil Cooler” is a must as understood by some. As I explained earlier it can effectively bring down the temperature quickly, from 85 deg c to 45 deg c in traffic jam. This has been verified with heat measurement instrument. The problem here is not many mechanics know how the wiring and relay should be done, so start citing reason here and there. If no fan is required, then what the hell putting a fan behind the water coolant radiator tank??? You have the best coolant right?? So the coolant can do the job of cooling why put in a big fan behind the Coolant Radiator??? Why not just dismantle the big fan then pray that your Engine would not be over heated:) Putting a good Japan Fan is the best oil cooler system I recon. Again this is risk management as understood by you smile.gif

Good luck smile.gif

Oh, read this in another forum:
An automatic transmission creates a lot of internal heat through friction: the friction of the fluid churning inside the torque converter, friction created when the clutch plates engage, and the normal friction created by gears and bearings carrying their loads.

It doesn't take long for the automatic transmission fluid (ATF) to heat up once the vehicle is in motion. Normal driving will raise fluid temperatures on most vehicles to 75 degrees C., which is the usual temperature range at which most fluids are designed to operate.(Most fluids have a range of 65 to 82C) If fluid temperatures can be held to 75 degrees C., ATF will last almost indefinitely, or say up to 150,000 km.

But if the fluid temperature goes much higher, the life of the fluid begins to plummet. The problem is even normal driving can push fluid temperatures well beyond safe limits. And once that happens, the trouble begins.

At elevated operating temperatures, ATF oxidizes, turns brown and takes on a smell like burnt toast. As heat destroys the fluid's lubricating qualities and friction characteristics, varnish begins to form on internal parts (such as the valve body) which interferes with the operation of the transmission. If the temperature gets above 120 degrees C., rubber seals begin to harden and split, which leads to leaks and pressure losses. At higher temperatures the transmission begins to slip, which only aggravates overheating even more. Eventually the clutches burn out and the transmission calls it a day and your gonna be 8000 ++ ringgit worse off

As a rule of thumb, every 6 degree increase in operating temperature above 75 degrees C. cuts the life of the fluid in half!

At 81 degrees C., for instance, fluid life is reduced to 80,000km. At 87 degrees C, which is commonly encountered in many transmissions, the fluid is only good for about 40,000km. At 93 degrees C., the fluid won't go much over 16,000 km. Add another 6 degrees, and life expectancy drops to 8000 km. And so on.

So do you think a good fan behind the oil cooler necessary????

#24
macrospy

Posted 16 October 2010 - 11:15 PM

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QUOTE (leeinred @ Oct 16 2010, 10:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ojtee,
We speak the same wave length here. In “boleh” land, u will find the following scenario:
1. When the manual and technical specification of the AL4 GB clearly stated that: “AL4 GEAR BOX IS A SEALED AUTOMATED TRANSMISSION DESIGN FOR LONG LIFE:, "It`s sealed tight" !!!! you would have people that come to tell you their mechanic is able to dismantle and repair the AL4 GB. They probably want to tell you that they are able to change the “torque converter” and the “clutch plates” inside the GB as well after fair wear and tear smile.gif Just smile smile.gif
2. When you cast a doubt over the “genuine” of the GEAR OIL on the wording “MADE IN U.E.”, you would have people that interpreted to mean “European Union specification and standard”, Rather than from where the oil come from, “MADE IN XXX” mean specification. If it mean specification, why can’t you put the wording as “MADE IN ACCORDANCE WITH E.U SPECIFICATION XXXXXX” or “MADE IN COMPLIANCE WITH E.U. SPECIFICATION XXXXXX”?????. Shouldn’t specification and standard come with a CODE and NUMBER?? If “MADE IN U.E.” means “specification” then what is this Esso LT71141 ??? Esso LT 71141 specs is not EXXON spec??? Just smile when u read between the lines because when come to bs in this “bolehland” we have many “experts” recognized by the medical act of “bolehland” but able to “strangle” themselves with both hands smile.gif
3. My philosophy of life in problem solving is this: “If there are modern “medicines” and preventive measures that able to cure and prevent a problem from occurring why walk into the surgery room??? Rather than building up an “immune” system or have medicine cured at the least expense, you have expert that claim able to operate, cut here and there with bs guarantee and no further side effect smile.gif
4. Putting a good Japan fan behind an “Oil Cooler” is a must as understood by some. As I explained earlier it can effectively bring down the temperature quickly, from 85 deg c to 45 deg c in traffic jam. This has been verified with heat measurement instrument. The problem here is not many mechanics know how the wiring and relay should be done, so start citing reason here and there. If no fan is required, then what the hell putting a fan behind the water coolant radiator tank??? You have the best coolant right?? So the coolant can do the job of cooling why put in a big fan behind the Coolant Radiator??? Why not just dismantle the big fan then pray that your Engine would not be over heated:) Putting a good Japan Fan is the best oil cooler system I recon. Again this is risk management as understood by you smile.gif

Good luck smile.gif

Seal for life no ATF changed is required, I also believe that until the French PSA Specialist came and asked the dealer to changed every 30k because too many Gbox failure in the late 1990s for 4HP20. In Australia if not mistaken, almost the same climate, was asked to change ATF at 30k for AL4 also. Anyway I wonder what is the 72 pages of overhaul AL4 technical manual is lying on my table for if it is not meant to be open? Maybe the engineers there are too free and wrote the manual hehe

On the cooler, why waste and risk unnecessary wiring because the existing fan is sufficient, after all the cooler is attached close to the radiator.

#25
leeinred

Posted 17 October 2010 - 12:29 PM

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Pardon my bluntness to explain as follows:

The oil cooler has been designed to place separately from the Main Coolant Radiator (unlike what have been seen in Proton Perdana) for reasons as follows:
1. Very Limited Space constraint in Citroen, Peugeot cars and many other continental cars;
2. Place the oil cooler behind Main Coolant Radiator may transmit the “Heat” from one Radiator to another, then adding more “heat” transfer to each another.
3. Placing oil cooler separately from Main Coolant radiator with both facing the front air flow direction can achieve better and cooler air blow and “cooling” efficiency when driving
4. As can be seen in the picture, the oil cooler is thicker and stronger in shape, with thicker oil cooler, the heat transfer is better. Install oil cooler in the front “bumper” with both radiators facing the air blow direction will provide better and stronger heat dispersing when driving. Therefore the “efficiency” of cooling the oil cooler can be achieved. Adding a good fan behind oil cooler can help to “disperse” the heat even faster when caught in heavy traffic jam. This way your AL4 will work much better with cooler temp, smoother ride.
5. Sharing 1 fan with 2 radiators is not recommended because the “efficiency” of cooling is just not there as explained above. In addition, we are asking the Big Fan to do the job of “cooling” 2 radiators at the same time, adding work load to the poor big fan. If “big” fan failed, both radiators hurt at same time. Again this is risk management.

Oh, for old Gear Box, I always advice car owner to add in a tube of “Auto Gear Box Revitalizant + a can of GB “Metal Conditional” after changing GB oil ATF and adding “Oil Cooler” to the system for reasons: )

1. AL4 GB is a sealed tight Auto Transmission, not recommend dismantling and repairing. Besides it will be very costly to do that. Again as explained earlier, why walk yourself into the expensive surgery room with 72 pages of AL4 overhaul technical manual when you have modern medicine at affordable price that can cure and treat the GB problems in the car ????
2. For older GB after fair wear and tear, torque converter tends to get older. When wore and scratched clutch plates engage, friction created. When old wore gears and bearing carrying the loads, more wore internal parts, valve body and scratched metal parts which interfere with the operation of the transmission begin to fail. So a good medicine to rebuild the metal, provide smother metal surface and to “revitalize and restore” internal parts of GB is then recommended to reduce friction when metal clutch plates engage. Watch this again in the youtube.
3. If you have just replaced your ATF, then wait for the next replacement, so that you can do all together by not wasting your money
4. You will feel the good effect “before” and “after” the treatment and replacement, you will not feel “jerking” and a change in Gear when u test drive the car on the run way from 0km to 100km/hr and the pick up will also improved substantially. This has been provem to work on many continental cars include Merc Benz, Audi, Volvo, Peugeot and Citroen cars
5. If you feel that your car work better after all these medicines and preventive measures, and you want the car to work even better then you can consider to add in more dosage for treatment.
6. Again get the workshop I recommend. They are honest people and they know what they are doing.

Good luck.

oh, my mechanic Mr Yang once told me this: In his 20 years as mechanic, he has never met a customer like me smile.gif I took that as compliment smile.gif


#26
macrospy

Posted 17 October 2010 - 07:19 PM

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brother, if fan not working, you won't be driving aready-lah, have to stop. So separate fan also for what. We have tested the cooling effect of putting in the cooler infront of the radiator and it is o.k.-lah, driving around with online parameter reading (water, oil, ATF temperature continuosly display) diagnostic tool before and after installation of cooler. For peugeot/citroen with 1 Fan (3 speed usually) it is not necessary for extra cooling fan if got additional $ o.k also + plus space but really not a must.

The AL4 I am just trying to tell people that it can be rebuilt, therefore not seal tight and throw away when spoiled. Better if you take care so you do not have to rebuild. The rebuild cost will cost more than a 2nd hand, but got $$$ better rebuilt, everything new-mah. But the filter need to be changed.

Anyway your method is nothing wrong, but of course if want good, like your method more $$$ lah. Anyway whoever wanted to do like you also can-lah.

#27
leeinred

Posted 18 October 2010 - 10:56 AM

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QUOTE (macrospy @ Oct 17 2010, 07:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
brother, if fan not working, you won't be driving aready-lah, have to stop. So separate fan also for what. We have tested the cooling effect of putting in the cooler infront of the radiator and it is o.k.-lah, driving around with online parameter reading (water, oil, ATF temperature continuosly display) diagnostic tool before and after installation of cooler. For peugeot/citroen with 1 Fan (3 speed usually) it is not necessary for extra cooling fan if got additional $ o.k also + plus space but really not a must.

The AL4 I am just trying to tell people that it can be rebuilt, therefore not seal tight and throw away when spoiled. Better if you take care so you do not have to rebuild. The rebuild cost will cost more than a 2nd hand, but got $$$ better rebuilt, everything new-mah. But the filter need to be changed.

Anyway your method is nothing wrong, but of course if want good, like your method more $$$ lah. Anyway whoever wanted to do like you also can-lah.


Additional small Japan Fan only cost RM70 per pc + some wiring costs. Compare to dismantle and rebuild on 72 pages, it is peanuts.

#28
ojtee

Posted 18 October 2010 - 10:55 PM

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....and the plot thickens..... smile_cool.gif

Just to get everyone's ideas and thoughts about putting a fan near/on/direct to the GB, or possibly the valvebody where friction is at its max. The idea is to keep operating temp at the GB within specs, i know oil cooler does it job, but there is the factor of pressure loss, further contamination of the oils, etc,etc, if the current design is modified without proper engineering know-how, eventually this may lead to other unsforeseen circumstances.

i feel the fan at the GB will cut down the temp,its a theory, important will be the air flow and the oil cooler will maintain this lowered temp, so the oil will be/have a gradual cooling capacity as cooling oil isn't as fast as water coz oil is heavier in its molecular weight.

i'm not against oil cooler , but would try to stick to manufacturer's design, as i have not seen the design of the oil cooler, i can't comment on it further, i know for a fact oil cooling systems have a certain pressure and temp rating, i.e. a valve controlling the amount of oil in and out/ sometimes coulped with a termo-time switch.

so maybe just changing a swtich, or a valve to a lower temp rating may save some $$$ and unwarranted modding, mod the smart way not the hard way....

let me get my renault or pug first then i will do much dwelling with the technicalities , meanwhile keep the comments/experience and thoughts flowing in!!


#29
chedebt

Posted 19 October 2010 - 08:36 PM

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QUOTE (leeinred @ Oct 12 2010, 11:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So u have few English words at front and a french word behind smile.gif MAKE IN U.E. smile.gif

http://postimage.org/image/148zp3nyc/


If you zoom in the pic it actually says Made In E.U./Fabrique en U.E.

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#30
chedebt

Posted 19 October 2010 - 09:06 PM

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.

Winter must be cold for those without warm memories. We've already missed the Spring. - Deborah Kerr to Cary Grant, An Affair To Remember

Capt Picard (Butthead) : Uh, Number 1. I order you to go do a Number 2...     Uh-huh huh.

Number 1 (Beavis): Aye aye Cap'n. Pooooooooop. Mmm heh heh heh heh.